Announcement

Collapse

Seven Wiki Available

Please check out our wiki available at:

http://www.californiacaterhamclub.com/wiki7
See more
See less

Oil spec for track Zetec

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Oil spec for track Zetec

    I've got a ~200HP 2L Zetec in my SV used mainly for track events and it's due for an oil change. What weight oil are you all using? Also, dino or syn? Thx

  • #2
    I use Redline 5W-30 synthetic in the engine.

    Redline lightweight shockproof in my T9 with the close ratio gears.

    Do you have an oil cooler?

    Doug

    Comment


    • #3
      I have been using Mobil1 5W-30 for a long time but got concerned about the continued regulatory drop in wear additives (that means the same grade oil is different now than it was when the engine was developed). There is a ton of info about this on the web like this:
      The question of phosphorus.....

      Phosphorus is the key component for valve train protection in an engine, and 1600ppm (parts per million) used to be the standard for phosphorus in engine oil. In 1996 that was dropped to 800ppm and then more recently to 400ppm - a quarter of the original spec. Valvetrains and their components are not especially cheap to replace and this drop in phosphorus content has been a problem for many engines. So why was the level dropped? Money. Next to lead, it's the second most destructive substance to shove through a catalytic converter. The US government mandated a 150,000 mile liftime on catalytic converters and the quickest way to do that was to drop phosphorous levels and bugger the valvetrain problem. Literally.
      In the US, Mobil 1 originally came out with the 0W40 as a 'European Formula' as it was always above 1000 ppm. This initially got them out of the 1996 800ppm jam and knowledgeable consumers sought it out for obvious reasons. Their 15W50 has also maintained a very high level of phosphorus and all of the extended life Mobil synthetics now have at least 1000ppm. How do they get away with this? They're not classified as energy/fuel conserving oils and thus do not interfere with the precious government CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) ratings. (See my section on the EPA and fuel economy in the Fuel and Engine Bible for more info on this). This also means that they don't get the coveted ratings of other oils but they do protect your valvetrain.
      Last year I switched to a CenPeCo paraffin based racing oil with high zinc phosphate content. Will it help the engine last longer or would I have had trouble with API spec oil in the long run? Maybe not but since there are many other factors playing in engine life I will probably never find out.

      Gert

      Comment


      • #4
        Who wrote that Gert? I ask because at the same time that the standard quoted was quartered automobile manufacturers have extended engine warranties (in some cases to 100,000 miles) and oil change intervals. And during the same time synthetics have become more and more common as an oem spec.

        Given the way my engine is used, I just wonder why should I care about ultra-long valve train wear issues. I change the oil after every track weekend anyway and imo dirty / toasted oil will do far more damage to any engine component far more quickly than the amount of phosphorus in the oil ever would. Besides, I'll get, er, have got, upgradeitis waaaay before low phosphorus oil eats my valve train away.

        I don't know about Zetecs, but I've been using Valvoline synthetic 5w-20 in my engine. I don't know what I'll use in the new engine just yet. I reckon one is just about the same as another at the expensive (synthetic) end of the spectrum
        Chris
        ------------
        A day you don't go a hundred is a day wasted

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by moosetestbestanden View Post
          Who wrote that Gert? I ask because at the same time that the standard quoted was quartered automobile manufacturers have extended engine warranties (in some cases to 100,000 miles) and oil change intervals. And during the same time synthetics have become more and more common as an oem spec.
          I just quoted this as an example for many web sites writing about the effects of lowering the allowed ZDDP content as well as the recommended viscosities. This one was from here. The writing style is somewhat cheesy but at least the facts match what you find in other places.

          I think modern engines can live with the new API spec oils (I believe "SM" is the latest) for a reasonable time because many of them have now roller lifters, tight manufacturing tolerances and usually don't run full willy for extended periods. However, my Zetec is an early 80's design, has flat tappets with high lift cam and is taken to the track occasionally where the oil gets quite hot and where I do run it at high revs for 20 minutes at a time.

          I don't think the mineral/synthetic choice has too much to do with it. Most top quality oils are nowadays synthetic and normally preferred. The CenPeCo racing oil that I use just happens to be mineral based but I can live with the possibly shorter oil life because I also change it quite often.


          Given the way my engine is used, I just wonder why should I care about ultra-long valve train wear issues. I change the oil after every track weekend anyway and imo dirty / toasted oil will do far more damage to any engine component far more quickly than the amount of phosphorus in the oil ever would. Besides, I'll get, er, have got, upgradeitis waaaay before low phosphorus oil eats my valve train away.

          I don't know about Zetecs, but I've been using Valvoline synthetic 5w-20 in my engine. I don't know what I'll use in the new engine just yet. I reckon one is just about the same as another at the expensive (synthetic) end of the spectrum
          Maybe you are right, well, maybe not.....but I would like to keep my old engine running for a long time. Zetecs usually need 5W or 10W30 and that is already pretty thin. I have not heard of a race engine using a 5W-20 but maybe a Duratec can take it....

          Gert

          Comment


          • #6
            My current engine is internally stock. The 5w-20 is the oem spec for the engine (it even says so on the filler cap:)), so that's what I use. The new engine will likely want something different - I have to talk w/ Ammo.

            The Duratec seems to be designed as a disposable. Ford is cranking out about 2 million a year, and the repair manual on just about repair like a water pump says essentially "remove engine, replace". Further, a salvage engine is only about $500 - $700. The money required to make them more powerful (step 1 anyway) is all external - throttle bodies, ecu, clutch, flywheel, headers etc. and all of that can be transfered to a new engine at no additional cost.

            My new engine is likely to be somewhat more highly stressed. As such, it'll probably need looking after long before the lack of phosphorus in the oil eats away at the valves or camshafts. I don't mind - it's an expense I accept as part of the game that I like to play.
            Chris
            ------------
            A day you don't go a hundred is a day wasted

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't think the mineral/synthetic choice has too much to do with it.
              I was surfin around looking at 'windage' issues (more about that later in another thread maybe, depending on some tests being conducted in the U.K.) and found, from 'MotorOilWorld.com (!), the following:

              "Starting with the 2004 model year, the federal government requires auto manufacturers to cover catalytic converters under warranty for 120,000 miles. The active ingredients in a catalytic converter are platinum, rhodium and palladium, and they are very expensive metals. Over the years, engineers have been successful at reducing the amount of platinum-group metal needed to make a catalytic converter perform for extended periods. Most catalysts eventually fail because of poisons in the engine-out exhaust gas, and two of those poisons, phosphorous and sulfur, are in motor oil. Even new engines consume some oil through the crankcase ventilation system, and while it's a very small amount, it's unlikely these low metal-loading catalysts will meet the new 120,000-mile warranty requirement on engines using earlier service category oils. Rather than increase the metal loading--and, therefore, the cost--of new catalytic converters, the automakers decided it was time to change the chemistry of motor oil.

              Producing low-phosphorus motor oil presents a problem because a particular zinc-phosphorus compound has been used successfully for years as an anti-wear agent. As a substitute, chemists developed enhanced friction modifiers for the additive package that also help improve fuel economy. So far the only real problem this has caused is in motorcycles that use a wet clutch. This is one reason why the earlier-spec catalyst-damaging oil is still being produced."

              And this one (r.e. low-vis oil vis a vis the Duratec):

              "In the ongoing effort to improve fuel economy, car manufacturers are designing their engines to use lighter oil, typically 5W-20 or 5W-30. Some of the hybrid engines are using 0W-20 oil. In any engine, oil has several functions, which include:

              * Lubricating moving parts.
              * Carrying heat away from engine parts.
              * Acting as hydraulic fluid for lifters, tensioners and actuators.
              * Sealing the rings to the pistons and cylinder walls.
              Today's engines are tighter and built with greater precision, so low-viscosity oil is quite adequate for these tasks. It improves fuel economy because it's easier to pump, which reduces engine power needed for the oil pump (parasitic loss) and creates less drag on rotating parts (windage loss). Once the engine is warmed up, using oil that's one or two grades thicker usually doesn't cause any problems other than reduced fuel economy. However, when it's cold, thicker oil flows slower, which can cause damaging wear during cold-start and, under certain conditions, can also prevent hydraulic lifters and tensioners from bleeding down as designed."

              So there you have it Gert, you're right. Your heavy ol' flat tappet dinosaur needs stinky, phosphorousy, heavy ol' dinosaur earl, while the modern, sleek and stylish Duratec uses only the latest, most fashionable top-o-the-crackin tower, elegant, slippery light olio (from Milan), makin mo power in the process.:D
              Chris
              ------------
              A day you don't go a hundred is a day wasted

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by moosetestbestanden View Post

                So there you have it Gert, you're right. Your heavy ol' flat tappet dinosaur needs stinky, phosphorousy, heavy ol' dinosaur earl, while the modern, sleek and stylish Duratec uses only the latest, most fashionable top-o-the-crackin tower, elegant, slippery light olio (from Milan), makin mo power in the process.:D
                Thanks for the confirmation :) I love that dinosaur. I could not afford one these modern mammal engines, anyway and it would not fit easily.

                With all this oil related information on the web I suppose you have to take a larger sample, filter out the bullshit and "special interests", average the rest and read between the lines. Just looking at older Blatchat posts, there is no more fun you can have than starting an engine oil thread. I think the Spanish Inquisition was tolerant in comparison to the followers of one or the other oil religion.

                For that matter, I read somewhere that Ford recommends the 0W-20 for Duratec here in the states to make their CAFE numbers and somethingW-30 in Europe because it is better for the engine. But that may be just another piece of bullshit ;-)

                Gert
                Last edited by slomove; October 24, 2007, 07:36 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  For that matter, I read somewhere that Ford recommends the 0W-20 for Duratec here in the states to make their CAFE numbers and somethingW-30 in Europe because it is better for the engine. But that may be just another piece of bullshit ;-)
                  Ah yes, I saw that article. I think it was posted on Mأ¶tأ¶rأ–lWأ«rld.de. I had to run it through babelfish though, to verify the bs factor:D
                  Last edited by moosetestbestanden; October 24, 2007, 08:14 PM.
                  Chris
                  ------------
                  A day you don't go a hundred is a day wasted

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dudes, just to confuse everyone some more. ;)

                    I run 20w-50 mineral oil in mine. Maybe that's foolish, but I change it often (easy 'cuz it's cheap) and if the motor blows, it's a good excuse for an upgrade!
                    Tom "ELV15" Jones
                    http://PIErats.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I am runing Motul 20-50W. in my Rotary power 7.( Oil weight did very small effect on the Rotary SO I run very weight too keep the oil film). and due to the bad location Oil cooler, I run my oil very hot all the time... what amazing is when i cooking my oil 130C+at 7K RPM in Street of willow back straight. and the oil pressure still stay at same. It hold up aleast two event before I change it...

                      Today I am testing Valvoine 20w-50 this time. ( use all my motul last time) plus Kragen have a special offer that is less then 1 dollor for bottle !!!!.
                      well when I pour the oil into my engine. I fee the oil is a bit thin compare to the motul. When I start the engine.... The oil psi seen to be lower then Motul. my motul have about 4KG of psi when new and about 3.9Kg of psi after been over heat and abuse.. but the Valvoine's PSI is about 3.7KG..... The WOT PSI is about the same... let see what happend when I put it in this week's CA speed way event.....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Here is the recommended oil table from the European Duratec shop manual.



                        After looking at this and speaking with several people, I settled on Redline 5W-30 for my Duratec.

                        -John
                        Westfield SEiW
                        2.0L Duratec
                        Throttle Steer

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X