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Brakes shot.

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  • Brakes shot.

    I gave up on my brakes yesterday.

    I haven't had the car out for a month or so when I decided to take a friend out in it.

    The brake pedal was mushy beyond belief. I believe all my brake issues started (for real) when I did my completely failed experiment with DOT 5.1, which must have ruined the master cylinder.

    Also, when I inspected the rear brakes, they were worn halfway down after a single track weekend.

    So I finally gave up and ordered a new (upgraded) master cylinder from Caterham. I am also trying to hunt down the Outlaw M-16 replacement, but it seems like they are no longer manufactured. They are listed in Outlaw's catalog but nobody is carrying them.

    I'll start to dig into wilwood brakes. There is an M16-MIDILITE over in europe, but it is not listed on wilwood.com.

    /Magnus F.

  • #2
    My rotors are getting worn, and I decided to go ahead and get the replacement rotors for the upgraded APS brakes. Yikes! What you save on tires for these cars you can certainly make up for on rotors.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by magnusfeuer View Post
      ...........DOT 5.1, which must have ruined the master cylinder.
      IIRC you had silicone DOT 5 in there at one time. In comparison the glycol based DOT 5.1 should be fine (as is a good DOT 4 like ATE Blue/Yellow). But given the persistent trouble replacing the key components may be the best way to hopefully solve the problem. Once you have master and slave cylinders disconnected you should probably flush with alcohol and blow through the plumbing.

      Gert

      P.S.: I read somewhere that DOT 4/5.1 will gel and make a goo when mixed with DOT 5 and clog the master cylinder. Not sure about that but if so that could be the root cause.
      Last edited by slomove; June 28, 2009, 04:34 PM.

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      • #4
        Magnus

        Did you call Outlook directly?

        I have the Outlaw M16s and the uprated MC along with the high ratio brake pedal if you want to try it out.

        A heavy pedal until you get used to it, I don't even notice it after the first few minutes.


        I have a spare standard MC if you are in dire need.

        Doug
        Last edited by Doug Liedblad; June 28, 2009, 11:12 PM.

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        • #5
          Just called Outlaw who told me that these calipers, being all European and communist, are normally not stocked. He directed me to Motor State Distributing, who I will call after I've spoken to Wilwood to see if this caliper can be had in the U.S.

          /Magnus F.

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          • #6
            I recall getting my Outlaws from Woody at MSI.

            He was a dealer at the time, I don't know about now.

            Doug

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            • #7
              I have seen HiSpec mentioned frequently on Blatchat. They make a lightweight caliper solution for Caterhams that costs less than the Wilwood or the Outlaw, and they have a handbrake option available. If you have to order across the Atlantic for calipers anyway, it might be an option to consider.
              http://www.hispecbrake.co.uk/ No affiliation and stuff.
              | | Sean

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              • #8
                Hmm.

                Lot's of mixed reviews and some complaining of pads that doesn't fit.

                I'll think I go for outlaw since it is a Doug-proven solution.

                /Magnus F.

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                • #9
                  The Outlaws are a bolt on solution, you do have to change the
                  brake line to a 1/8" NPT. Check the caliper to be sure. Use Locktite 592 (thread sealer not locker) on the threads before you add brake fluid. Not the blue or red stuff blue might be OK.

                  You have to add a spacer washer to center the caliper on the rotor. I'll post a photo if I can get the camera close enough.

                  I'm using Porterfield pads, the road and rally ones I think. Street might be just fine as these pads have lasted many track days and need to be hot to really work well.

                  The mounting points of the calipers is such that the entire pad surface is not in contact with the rotor at the outside edge. No problems but as they wear you do get a ledge on the pad. I ground a large bevel on the pad to minimize this.

                  An alternative might be to try Triumph GT6+ rotors. I've seen where other Caterham owner have turned down the OD. I think this was with stock calipers but no longer remember. I plan to try this when I get back to my brake upgrades.
                  Last edited by Doug Liedblad; June 30, 2009, 01:01 PM. Reason: change to Loctite 592, higher temp rating

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                  • #10
                    Installed the new race master brake cylinder today, which made a huge difference.

                    After a quick bleed the pedal was firm as it has not been in a very long time. A ten minute ride confirmed that I now could lock up at least the front wheels with no problems at all. Brakes pulled straight.

                    Next, I will replace the rear pads (which are halfway worn) and install new outlaw calipers in the front.

                    Then I'll hit the freeway to see how the new system behaves under stress.

                    /Magnus F.

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                    • #11
                      "The Outlaws are a bolt on solution, you do have to change the
                      brake line to a 1/8" NPT."


                      For what it's worth, I just installed a set of Outlaws on my Birkin...they arrived directly from Outlaw already tapped with 10mm straight thread for the brake line banjo.

                      Randall

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                      • #12
                        Outlaw has told me they will do specials if they have the time. Did you ask fo the 10 mm or did they just show up that way?

                        Doug

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                        • #13
                          It was a pleasant surprise. I expected to get the pipe thread and have to tap them to 10mm myself. They are the specially marked "Birkin" units, but even Dick Brink didn't expect the metric thread coming directly from Outlaw.

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                          • #14
                            The metric thread is nice but you really don't have to change.

                            The 1/8" NPT works fine and other caliper makers use it too.

                            Doug

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                            • #15
                              Ok.

                              Outlaws have been ordered. I'll also pick up a set of Triumph GT6 rotors which have a 13mm greater diameter. This will remove the problem with the stock (spitfire) rotor leaving the outermost area of the outlaw's pads unused. The GT6 rotors will also (if my calculations are correct) increase the brake area by 35%.

                              The calipers will ship Friday, so I'll work on installation next week.


                              /Magnus F.

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